Ehhh... that sucks.
Jon is a good guy. We've dealt with him for a LONG time now. VERY smart guy.
Jon is a good guy. We've dealt with him for a LONG time now. VERY smart guy.
Limits of Factory Injectors
Thanks to JR at AEM we know the factory injector limits. see below.
Looks like the boost isn't going up without new injectors. At 5500-6000 RPM and above the injectors are pretty much 100% on.
2000 RPM, 35% Inj Duty, 8 PSI Boost
2500 RPM, 51% Inj Duty, 13.7 PSI Boost
3000 RPM, 53% Inj Duty, 13.1 PSI Boost
3500 RPM, 53% Inj Duty, 12.1 PSI Boost
4000 RPM, 60% Inj Duty, 11.8 PSI Boost
4500 RPM, 69% Inj Duty, 11.2 PSI Boost
5000 RPM, 80% Inj Duty, 10.9 PSI Boost
5500 RPM, 92% Inj Duty, 10.1 PSI Boost
6000 RPM, 97% Inj Duty, 9.5 PSI Boost
So we may be able to raise the boost up a tad in the mid range but without injectors the boost from 5500 and up as going to have to stay stock. So, we will pull the injectors, flow them and select some new ones for further testing.
We already have our F/IC-6 on the car and it runs like stock, no codes or drivability issues. Of course we cant do anything with it untill we get bigger injectors but it is noce to at least get a wiring diagram done and confirmed.
Looks like the boost isn't going up without new injectors. At 5500-6000 RPM and above the injectors are pretty much 100% on.
2000 RPM, 35% Inj Duty, 8 PSI Boost
2500 RPM, 51% Inj Duty, 13.7 PSI Boost
3000 RPM, 53% Inj Duty, 13.1 PSI Boost
3500 RPM, 53% Inj Duty, 12.1 PSI Boost
4000 RPM, 60% Inj Duty, 11.8 PSI Boost
4500 RPM, 69% Inj Duty, 11.2 PSI Boost
5000 RPM, 80% Inj Duty, 10.9 PSI Boost
5500 RPM, 92% Inj Duty, 10.1 PSI Boost
6000 RPM, 97% Inj Duty, 9.5 PSI Boost
So we may be able to raise the boost up a tad in the mid range but without injectors the boost from 5500 and up as going to have to stay stock. So, we will pull the injectors, flow them and select some new ones for further testing.
We already have our F/IC-6 on the car and it runs like stock, no codes or drivability issues. Of course we cant do anything with it untill we get bigger injectors but it is noce to at least get a wiring diagram done and confirmed.
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At least new injectors is an easy & not so expensive fix.
Yeah but you then have to change the ECu to compensate for the new injectors...
I am surprised they maxed out already. On my VVL SR20 I have stock 333cc injectors for 197 crank HP so these must be smaller. the SR20DET's come with 370cc injectors for around 210hp...
I am surprised they maxed out already. On my VVL SR20 I have stock 333cc injectors for 197 crank HP so these must be smaller. the SR20DET's come with 370cc injectors for around 210hp...
You'll have to either do a reflash (assuming it does injectors) or use a piggyback or a stand alone EMS. We are doing a piggyback this week on out 2.0T (our F/IC-6).Yeah but you then have to change the ECu to compensate for the new injectors...
I am surprised they maxed out already. On my VVL SR20 I have stock 333cc injectors for 197 crank HP so these must be smaller. the SR20DET's come with 370cc injectors for around 210hp...
that is a huge disappointment ...the warranty gets voided when the ecu is tampered with
Yeah, that's when you've got to decide if your in this for the modding or the warranty. If you're truely afraid of voiding the warranty & really want to keep it in tact, the 3.8 may be the better choice. That's what my bro's doing. Then again (I didn't say this), you could save & return the ECU parameters back to factory setting B4 taking it in for warranty work. But, being the honest guy I am, this won't be an option for me. I had not intention of keeping my entire warranty in tact for very long anyway, at least it won't void all of my warranty.that is a huge disappointment ...the warranty gets voided when the ecu is tampered with
We just flow tested the factory 2.0T injectors and they flowed 335 cc/min @ 43.5 PSI (about 32 lbs/hour).
Thats a smidge bigger than I expected but not much. We'll look into some 550cc or 660cc injectors tomorrow.
Thats a smidge bigger than I expected but not much. We'll look into some 550cc or 660cc injectors tomorrow.
can you please post a pic of the injectors *stock*?
also can any of the RCengineering 1000+cc injectors fit into the 2.0 and run? im not saying like just plug and play but as far as accepting the ecu voltage and all that? because then once flashing/or stand alone comes into play one could just play with scaling and latencies to ge them too work.
this isnt a big hurdle ever car make gets over it in one way or another
also can any of the RCengineering 1000+cc injectors fit into the 2.0 and run? im not saying like just plug and play but as far as accepting the ecu voltage and all that? because then once flashing/or stand alone comes into play one could just play with scaling and latencies to ge them too work.
this isnt a big hurdle ever car make gets over it in one way or another
damn so thats about right, although they shouldnt be maxing out at the high endWe just flow tested the factory 2.0T injectors and they flowed 335 cc/min @ 43.5 PSI (about 32 lbs/hour).
Thats a smidge bigger than I expected but not much. We'll look into some 550cc or 660cc injectors tomorrow.
ya you would think that the top end would have a bit more room for play, are u sure its not the fuel pump maybe running outta steam?damn so thats about right, although they shouldnt be maxing out at the high end
Hmm these are interesting readings.. i guess 300hp is out on the stock injectors unless you do something like like bump up fuel pressure... i also wonder why out of the box Hyundai programmed near 100% duty cycle at the upper rpms?? Just seems odd to me and not safe... perhaps this being a prototype car the programming and injectors weren't quite dialed in..
:dunno:
:dunno:
Here are the injectors. They have the same form factor as Seimens Deka injectors
The Hyundai engineers we talked to told us early on that the injectors were going to have to be upgraded before we make any more power but I didn't think they were being so literal!
As a point of reference, the 2nd gen DSM's (mitsu eclipse turbo, 95-99) had 450cc/min injectors.
The Hyundai engineers we talked to told us early on that the injectors were going to have to be upgraded before we make any more power but I didn't think they were being so literal!
As a point of reference, the 2nd gen DSM's (mitsu eclipse turbo, 95-99) had 450cc/min injectors.
No, the injectors were tested off the car at 43.5 PSI and they flow ~335cc/min and that is about right for the duty cycles we were seeing on the car.are u sure its not the fuel pump maybe running outta steam?
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No biggie, injectors it is. I mean, if it's gotta be done what are ya gonna do?
Thanks JR for keep us informed. Let us know how the rest of fuel system does after the injector upgrade.
Thanks JR for keep us informed. Let us know how the rest of fuel system does after the injector upgrade.
We now have a set of RC 650cc injectors in the car. They are pretty much a drop in.
I am working on setting up the F/IC-6 to run the engine and hopefully take the car home this weekend to check that the drivability is unchanged.
I am working on setting up the F/IC-6 to run the engine and hopefully take the car home this weekend to check that the drivability is unchanged.
Sweet, we'll be looking for details Monday then..We now have a set of RC 650cc injectors in the car. They are pretty much a drop in.
I am working on setting up the F/IC-6 to run the engine and hopefully take the car home this weekend to check that the drivability is unchanged.
any of these companies should be able to have a kit with injectors included in it. if its full standalone you aren't screwing with the stock ecu so box the stock injectors and ecu up and throw the new goodies in.
i will be waiting to see the performance from the turbo cars and how the aftermarket takes to them.
i will be waiting to see the performance from the turbo cars and how the aftermarket takes to them.
Hmm very odd they would put those small injectors on, i guess perhaps in a cost savings effort.. any thoughts on just bumping up fuel pressure to squeeze some extra flow and compensate for a tad more HP? I'm guessing a simple return line system can be used. Just curious..Here are the injectors. They have the same form factor as Seimens Deka injectors
The Hyundai engineers we talked to told us early on that the injectors were going to have to be upgraded before we make any more power but I didn't think they were being so literal!
As a point of reference, the 2nd gen DSM's (mitsu eclipse turbo, 95-99) had 450cc/min injectors.
No, the injectors were tested off the car at 43.5 PSI and they flow ~335cc/min and that is about right for the duty cycles we were seeing on the car.
Awesome that there are already replacements out there... on the F/IC will it be a simple matter of just scaling down the bigger injectors until you guys start adding boost?We now have a set of RC 650cc injectors in the car. They are pretty much a drop in.
I am working on setting up the F/IC-6 to run the engine and hopefully take the car home this weekend to check that the drivability is unchanged.
Tuning the F/IC for larger injectors was just a matter of taking the ratio of the two injectors and applying the correction to the fuel pulse. The 335cc to 650cc swap requires a pulse width reduction of 48.5% (1-335/650 = .4846) so all we had to do was fill the fuel map with -48.5% everywhere. Then we entered 1000 in the "injector response time" as a wild arse guess. Started up the car and it ran almost like stock.Awesome that there are already replacements out there... on the F/IC will it be a simple matter of just scaling down the bigger injectors until you guys start adding boost?
Then I fired up my OBD-2 scanner and looked at the fuel trims at idle. They were a little off but I was out of time so later today I am going to change the response time a bit to get them closer to zero.
The injector response time is an unknown but it is important when you change injectors. The F/IC intercepts the stock pulse to the injectors. It reads the entire injector "on" time but it knows that the entire on time does not represent fuel flow time. There is always an inherent lag or response for an injector. It is typically between 500uS and 1,500uS (0.5 to 1.5mS).
It's importance can be illustrated by an example. Say the factory injector takes 1000uS to respond to an "on" signal before it starts flowing fuel and the injector is getting a 2.5mS pulsewidth. The F/IC needs to know thatthe factory ECU is only asking for 1.5mS of fuel, not 2.5mS of fuel. So if you double the injector you dont half the time supplied to the injector, you reduce by half the amount of OEM pulsewidth minus the response time. The nice thing is it's actually pretty easty to figure out the response time.
1. Hook up an OBD scanner so you can see your fuel trims BEFORE you change injectors. Noto the long term and short term trims at idle.
2. Change injectors and put in the correct fuel map in the FIC based entirely on the flow rates of the old vs new injectors.
3. Enter 1000 as a SWAG for the Injector response time.
4. Start the car and let it idle untill the short term and long term trims stabilize at idee.
5. If the trims are too High (positive number) then the injector response time value needs to be INCREASED
6. If the trims are too Low (negative number) then the injector response time value needs to be DECREASED
7. Once the trims are within 5% (plus or minus) you are done.
All systems need to address this in some way. What is demonstrated here used the terminology of the AEM F/IC but others are similar and all muct correct for the factory response somehow.
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
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