Hyundai Genesis Forum banner
41 - 60 of 68 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
I run the stage 2 snow injection on my gen coupe, probably the first to try.let me clear up all this crap from the last few posts.Without a tune do not run meth water, your car will run rich and lose power.If you dont have the capacity to tune the afr just run water for the cooling and octane benefit.Meth is fuel after all.Once you are able to tune afr and timing , meth injection is the best.Dont let anyone fool you into running more boost to conpensate for the rich afr, it will work but the turbo is so small it wont work for long.
Off topic I blew away an evo x , two different pulls, really nice guy he could not believe how good my car ran.
Water has no octane benefit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
one thing about methanol with a turbo or a supercharger is the fact that it is actually more effective than an intercooler. meth thrives on heat, so running it without an intercooler is most effective, due to the fact that it atomizes better. another benefit to meth is the fact that it gives you an increased octane rating, so it is almost like running race gas, but alot cheaper. my shop makes a kit that has no pump, so it is alot less prone to failure. this is what i reccomend. i myself want to run a vortech kit with meth in my mustang, intecoolerless, therefore making more boost, and better cooling. you will pretty much need to refill meth every month, it costs about 12 dollars each time. do not use windshild fluid, and tune your car with the meth, not tune it then spray it.
The effectiveness of water/methanol injection is not really diminished by having an intercooler. Most of our customers use both with tremendous results. Now a bosted application without an intercooler might need water/methanol more, but its extremely effective even in applications with large FMICs.

& that's the only thing holding me back from saying yes I'm gonna do this, although I still may. If I do, it wil be with the 5gal tank, so I don't have to refill so often.

A standard tank of 3 Quarts will usually last for about 18 gallons of gas in an application like this, allowing you to check on your methanol about when to fill up on gas. A 2.5 gallon tank will last many tanks fo fuel. I ran an old 2Qt tank myself and I could get one week of use from it, and that was on a 24PSI 4G63 application in Phoenix heat with a large nozzle.


Going too large can actually be a problem, and not just from a weight and size standpoint. Methanol has a very interesting property whereby it actually pulls water out of the air, weakening itself over time. You will often hear dedicated drag racing teams (that use methanol as a primary fuel) talk about water contamination. Virtually every tank on the market is vented, and it should be. The methanol in these tanks will pull water from the air. This is not a significant problem as long as you do not have the same fluid sitting in the vented tank for 2 months. But after a long period of time, you can get a weaker mix. 5 gallons will last a very, very long time.

I run the stage 2 snow injection on my gen coupe, probably the first to try.let me clear up all this crap from the last few posts.Without a tune do not run meth water, your car will run rich and lose power.If you dont have the capacity to tune the afr just run water for the cooling and octane benefit.Meth is fuel after all.Once you are able to tune afr and timing , meth injection is the best.Dont let anyone fool you into running more boost to conpensate for the rich afr, it will work but the turbo is so small it wont work for long.
Off topic I blew away an evo x , two different pulls, really nice guy he could not believe how good my car ran.
Good points. A properly setup system injecting 50/50 water/methanol will generally richen the AFR about .3 or so. This is not a huge enrichment, and the cooler charge temps will often actually make up for it and them some. I have a customer in Arizona that gained 24WHP on his KB supercharged Mustang simply from putting the system on. The cooling was that important to him. But it is certanly true that the big benefits of injection come into play with the tuning available. Pure methanol will of course create a lot of enrichment, but 50/50 is often very manageable.

The other benefits besides the power is in the inherent protection you get. Keep in mind that its not just the cooler IAT you are getting, but also the cooler combustion temps. In a scenario with 2 cars making the same power, one with water/methanol, and one without, the one with will be running cooler and with suceptability to detonation from say a bad batch of gasoline.

Water has no octane benefit.
Intuitively this seems true, but actually pure water injection will provide around 8 points of octane when used in conjunction with pump fuel.

Octane is widely beleived to some sort of chemical. It's actually nothing more than a measure of resistance to detonation. It's determined by a very odd little 1 cylinder engine testing setup here in the US. The Federal Government has a lab with them in CA as I recall. Essentially, more octane means the fuel is more resistant to an uncontrolled burn as opposed to a nice even flame front. An uncontrolled burn is what heppens in "spark knock" aka "detonation" aka "knock". Pre-ignition is a whole different animal.

Water is virtually infinite octane becuase it does not combust in your typical internal combustion engine. It's ability to absorb tremendous amounts of heat means it can slow down the flame front, preventing detonation and allowing for more pressure and earlier igniton without spark knock.

Sorry for all the posts guys, this is a great thread. Its always nice to see such an active discussion, and I wil be glad to provide any information anyone needs.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,780 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
Water has no octane benefit.
When I speak I speak from my own experience,I dont guess or read something that someone else posted.
I wrench my own motors and I might not have the perfect words but you can be sure what I say are real world experience, not speculation.I am not going to rip you for not underdstanding the concept of octane, what I will do is explain it and hopefully new guys can benefit.Octane and timing advance are like a married couple they are linked forever(insert joke).when you increase octane you are able to advance timing which in turn increases combustion pressure.when you advance timing you need a fuel that burns slower,what better way to slow the burn of fuel then add water which in turn creates a higher octane rating.
This is very basic in the tuner world and I only responded because I wish years ago someone would of explained it to me when I was wet behind the ears.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Don't be sorry, glad to have you join in, esp since it seems you know your shit.

I will go ahead & merge all the posts for you.

Thank you and thank you. We are really excited by this platform. Shoot, I used an old G4CS Hyundai based engine my old DSM. The tech sharing combined with the fact that is is some truly great speed in a affordable car is just hard to beat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Injecting a 15-20 percent ethanol blend will enrich the AFR slightly.

Many people think that ethanol leans out the mix because winter gas gets lower mileage than summer gas due to the higher ethanol content. The thing is, the stoichiomentric ratio for alcohol is much lower than gasoline, and that means the vehicles ECU automatically adjusts a bit to inject more under open loop, hurting mileage. The overal stoich ratio of the fuel has gone down, hurting mileage.

But when you inject the alcohol (be it methanol or ethanol) on top of the normal fueling going on, you get a slight enrichment, because we are then simply adding fuel rather than switching gasoline with alcohol. Now the ECU may adjust to this if we inject at low load states where we are still in open loop, qand actually pull back on the fueling to bring the 02 sensor readings in line, which can actually improve fuel economy like you said. But you need to be injecting very consistently on the low end for the computer to learn that and adjust accordingly.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,997 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
Good to hear.

This technology is really fun to talk about becuase it has so many facets and it can really benefit so many different aspects of an engine.
I had kinda let this idea die down, but now your enthusiasm regarding this mod has got me intrigued again. Sounds like alot of benefits are to be had, so I will be looking at this closer later on. Will definately be communicating back & forth with you prior though.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Is this Derek? Thanks for sharing your knowledge and welcome to the boards. Let us know if you guys are still interested in sponsoring the site in some way, i'm sure we can work something out.
It is!

We are always interested, but we have a lot on our plate right now. I really think this platform/forum is important though. The only reason you dont see more of these cars is that you dont see much more of any car right now :flame: But that will change with time.

I am always happy to talk tech on this stuff!

I had kinda let this idea die down, but now your enthusiasm regarding this mod has got me intrigued again. Sounds like alot of benefits are to be had, so I will be looking at this closer later on. Will definately be communicating back & forth with you prior though.
Sounds good to me :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
I have a question how long does a 1 gallon meth system last ? e-85 have anything to do with this? Im really a noob with meth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
We find that on your average boosted car running in the 250-350HP range and driving 'normally' on the street, a gallon of 50/50 water/methanol will last about 18-20 gallons of fuel.

E85 is a fuel, but its not to be run in a water/methanol injection system. While it has fantastic octane and cooling properties, you usually need to go with larger injectors to run it and typically mileage goes down by about 20% with it.

What both have in common is that they use the unique properties of alcohol to fight detonation. Water/methanol has the advantage of also using water to absorb even more heat, while also doing a lot to cool intake air temperatures.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
the meth would be gotten from ? how much is it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
the meth would be gotten from ? how much is it?
Just use washer fluid, cheap non flammable and works.I would guess I was the first to use it on the genesis coupe.
Most people make the mistake of tuning the car for meth water injection.Stock or little modded cars benefit from the cooling and dont worry about the octane timing advance factor.
With a built motor and no access to e85 by all means tune your car with water meth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
so if I do have access to e85 it better to run e85?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,780 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
Be prepared to tune car when you are ready to change over to e85 as the car was not originally designed to run on it & you will probably have to do a few fuel mods prior... i.e return fuel set up, bigger injectors & larger fuel pump
Most cars nowadays have the ability to run e85.For your setup the pump will be fine.
Bigger injectors,yes.E 85 uses more fuel but you would have to upgrade the injectors in your car anyway.
The other topic is whether the fuel system is able to handle alcohol, ie hose etc, I cant answer that because I dont run e85,I wish I could
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
Most cars nowadays have the ability to run e85.For your setup the pump will be fine.
Bigger injectors,yes.E 85 uses more fuel but you would have to upgrade the injectors in your car anyway.
The other topic is whether the fuel system is able to handle alcohol, ie hose etc, I cant answer that because I dont run e85,I wish I could
I agree that the pump may be adequate according to the flow comparison that AMS provided, the injectors are definately too small, & the return set up I would highly recommend with the the e85 switch.

But it may not matter in my case after all, I have a new variable to keep in mind regarding my build: how it will effect my classification for racing. I was also thinking of doing water/meth injection, but found out that water injection systems add +6 points & alcohol-water mixtures are not permitted. Not sure about e85, but would have to check prior to modding. BTW, an accumulation of 20 pts or more moves me up a class. The first 20 pts is free, but wider tires, dropping weight, upgraded FMIC along with a laundry list of other mods add a certain # points depending on the mod.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 
41 - 60 of 68 Posts
Top